Nov 2, 2023·edited Nov 2, 2023Liked by Adrian Gaty
Perhaps I'm just dense when it comes to the virtues of the large family, but what is wrong with having 2 or 3 kids, and stopping there? I was an only child, so I fully understand the loneliness and slight social awkwardness that can result. But 2 or 3 kiddos are usually enough to socialize one another if the parents encourage it properly. We no longer have family farms; age of marriage is delayed; and many Boomer and Silent Gen. grandparents are unwilling or unable to help. (I won't trash-talk the typical boomer mindset here, although it would be easy to do. Ha!) I agree that encouraging earlier marriage would be positive, but young adults would need a lot of scaffolding around them to make that successful. I'm not saying this from a feminist perspective at all. I don't think women having careers is what makes life worthwhile. I'm saying this from a realistic, practical perspective. I have seen very large (religious and non-religious) families where children's basic safety is neglected, because mom cannot possibly cope with that many responsibilities well. On a personal level, I have 2 kiddos, a supportive husband, and I have chronic fatigue all the time. Almost every mom I know (with an average of 2 kids) is tired all the time. And many moms have chronic health issues dragging them down, (weight/difficult menses/etc.) that can't easily be fixed, despite Big Pharma's promises. (Sorry to be graphic but this is a Dr.'s blog. 😃)
Further, the direction of the country and of the world is going the wrong way (understatement.) The growing anti-semitism and the almost radio-silence about it in churches is beyond disturbing. If ever there were a time to get 'our houses in order' it is now -- before bringing more babies into the world. I'm sorry to be so preachy, but the last few weeks have woken many of us up.
I love my kids and do the best I can. I know my limits. Idealistically and recklessly encouraging young women to have lots of babies can have consequences.
This all makes me sad. I just pray my children can find spouses that value family and want one themselves. I don’t think many people who claim to want to be childless even know what that will look like. My dad tells me about some of his clients who are in their 70s and 80s that aren’t married, have no children, etc. And they are lonely. They don’t have anyone visiting them, no one to celebrate holidays with. Being a parent is hard, but there’s nothing more rewarding. Seeing the relationships my children are building is priceless. My oldest is almost 12 so we will be approaching new territory. But there is nothing else I’d rather be doing. I do believe the feminist movement has gone too far. I also see so many people on social media talking about all the “trauma” they had from childhood (which, for most, I suspect isn’t true trauma and just life) and how they will it ever have children because they don’t want to pass it on to their kids. Maybe they are better off not having kids, or maybe their lives would be so much better for it. Or people talking about how it’s so selfish to have children (always a fun comment on every single post I ever see by a family with a lot of kids).
Both your article and Berenson's helped me put a finger on something I've struggled with. I was raised in a religious community (which I no longer live in) where it was the accepted norm to live with your parents until you get married. The notion of pushing your kids out of the house at 18 to go start their own life has always puzzled me. Men still living with their Mom's are the but of jokes. Girls are supposed to have appartments and careers and pay all their own bills and do all their own house work all by themselves. To me, this is where the seeds of breaking the family lie. The support, the love, the camaderie of having my adult children in the house is not only a comfort and a blessing to me, it demonstrates to my children how much I value having them in my life and how joyous having children can be. Two of them have tried out having their own appartments, one for school, the other under peer pressure. The one at 24 and the other at 21 are both currently back at home full on planning to homestead with Mom noting that our resources are greater together than separated. They want their own spaces and have their own dreams, but we are working together to help each other to those goals instead of this individual 'fend for yourself' mentality that is dividing our younger generations into single units. Of course the idea of having children is scary when you are on your own and then what is the point if you push them away just when they are able to take care of themselves. How can we expect the new generation to want to establish their own family homes all the while telling them they should be separate and independant and omnipotent while they are still single?
My wife and I have a 6, 4, 3, and 1 year old. We have a fifth child on the way. You hardly hear a congratulations for the first child and you receive increasing amounts of scorn past number two. We are at the point where we just don't bother to tell anymore and let the kids let it slip when they may.
On a positive note, the only place we notice larger families is at home school activities and church. If those having kids can prepare them to enter into the world without being devoured maybe there is some hope for the future.
We live on an island in Washington State and I tell all the old ladies in my garden club that my family is trying to lower the median age of the town. When we were raising our seven in the Seattle area I used to tell people that we not only got our social security covered but we’re making sure several childless couples were covered too!! Now with 27 grandchildren and more on the way, we are really ensuring the checks keep coming!!
Do you know or follow Dr. Aaron Kheriaty? Your deep faith and philosophical and literary perspectives, despite your science-based professions, are strikingly similar! You get the “big picture” of life!
I completely understand disallowing kids at one’s wedding. It never occurred to my husband and I to exclude kids mostly because we do look at weddings as large community celebrations. Also because our families are bursting at the seams with teachers who are not only willing to discipline other people’s children but are unable to refrain from doing so. Unruly children were never a concern for us. However since then we have attended several weddings which would have been a far more pleasant event had children been excluded.
It’s not just unruly and obnoxious children that can make for a frustrating experience although that is a serious issue. What’s worse for me is when parents don’t take into account the other people in attendance. For example I have young children so I completely understand that interrupted nap times and changed schedules can be difficult and sometimes kids are going to meltdown. But once the meltdown starts I have no idea why parents just ride it out in the service or reception and let the kid scream for ten minutes. It’s extremely frustrating to do everything in your power to keep your kids quiet only to miss the vows because some other parent thinks letting their kid “cry it out” for ten minutes during a wedding ceremony is okay.
I have some friends who have very respectful and kind children and it’s common for them to hear things like “I don’t normally like kids, but I like having your kids around.” Conversely I have friends with children who are not necessarily out of control but just not very respectful of others and it’s common for those friends to complain that same environment is hostile to kids. So I think often when it comes to kids getting excluded parents are our own worst enemies. If you want your kids to be included, you had better make darn sure they are respectful and under control when they are included.
More parents need to adhere to Jordan Peterson Rule No 5 “Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them.”
I can’t remember where I picked up this link- maybe here? Or maybe Jon haidt’s substack? Anyway, I know I’m reading into it a LOT...I’m raising and homeschooling 4 kids (ages 7-16)...but I’m very struck by the significance that is placed on autonomous play and the way in which kids are being reared away from home has destroyed opportunities for older kids to be in charge of younger kids and taking adults and adult control out of the picture.
Reading your piece made me think a lot about how different each of my kids is and about how valuable the socialization here at home is. We talk a lot about what they think their strengths and weaknesses are...how those strengths can also be their Achilles...and how to consider the perspective (and the general humor) of their siblings in order to have patience for one another.
The decline in population world wide has been on-going and might be a serious future limitation. I sense that the world is more than capable of feeding itself indefinitely given the progress of technology so the fears of Malthus are silly. But the effort to convince females that corporate life is more rewarding than motherhood certainly has helped the corporations rather than the women involved. But redefining that outside work vs building a home balance is way overdue. My cynic sees childlessness as pure selfishness. As I age away, my grands seem the only real evidence of my "good" works. There were struggles along the way but I had a solid partner. That took effort of us both. I believe whatever we did was worth that effort.
The cultural issues associated with the demise of Indo-European stock "white" may equally be of concern as time goes on. As we divide ourselves into various tribes to please various political forces, the loss of cultural values in children become important. We can lose the ability to have a melting pot of culture. A sensitive issue.
Know what I've noticed lately? There seems to be a lot more pet supply stores popping up than baby supply stores. It's so sad.
Your piece here resonates with the post I just released today with my husband, which focuses on family and "its unique role in forming human beings, and how it offers us a natural antidote to the Machine." See https://schooloftheunconformed.substack.com/p/machine-antidote-101-how-to-apprentice?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
Will certainly take a listen to the conversation you linked. Also, have you come across this post by James F Richardson on the importance of large families in mixed-gender socialization? https://jamesrichardson.substack.com/p/how-the-rise-of-small-families-set?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2
Perhaps I'm just dense when it comes to the virtues of the large family, but what is wrong with having 2 or 3 kids, and stopping there? I was an only child, so I fully understand the loneliness and slight social awkwardness that can result. But 2 or 3 kiddos are usually enough to socialize one another if the parents encourage it properly. We no longer have family farms; age of marriage is delayed; and many Boomer and Silent Gen. grandparents are unwilling or unable to help. (I won't trash-talk the typical boomer mindset here, although it would be easy to do. Ha!) I agree that encouraging earlier marriage would be positive, but young adults would need a lot of scaffolding around them to make that successful. I'm not saying this from a feminist perspective at all. I don't think women having careers is what makes life worthwhile. I'm saying this from a realistic, practical perspective. I have seen very large (religious and non-religious) families where children's basic safety is neglected, because mom cannot possibly cope with that many responsibilities well. On a personal level, I have 2 kiddos, a supportive husband, and I have chronic fatigue all the time. Almost every mom I know (with an average of 2 kids) is tired all the time. And many moms have chronic health issues dragging them down, (weight/difficult menses/etc.) that can't easily be fixed, despite Big Pharma's promises. (Sorry to be graphic but this is a Dr.'s blog. 😃)
Further, the direction of the country and of the world is going the wrong way (understatement.) The growing anti-semitism and the almost radio-silence about it in churches is beyond disturbing. If ever there were a time to get 'our houses in order' it is now -- before bringing more babies into the world. I'm sorry to be so preachy, but the last few weeks have woken many of us up.
I love my kids and do the best I can. I know my limits. Idealistically and recklessly encouraging young women to have lots of babies can have consequences.
This all makes me sad. I just pray my children can find spouses that value family and want one themselves. I don’t think many people who claim to want to be childless even know what that will look like. My dad tells me about some of his clients who are in their 70s and 80s that aren’t married, have no children, etc. And they are lonely. They don’t have anyone visiting them, no one to celebrate holidays with. Being a parent is hard, but there’s nothing more rewarding. Seeing the relationships my children are building is priceless. My oldest is almost 12 so we will be approaching new territory. But there is nothing else I’d rather be doing. I do believe the feminist movement has gone too far. I also see so many people on social media talking about all the “trauma” they had from childhood (which, for most, I suspect isn’t true trauma and just life) and how they will it ever have children because they don’t want to pass it on to their kids. Maybe they are better off not having kids, or maybe their lives would be so much better for it. Or people talking about how it’s so selfish to have children (always a fun comment on every single post I ever see by a family with a lot of kids).
Both your article and Berenson's helped me put a finger on something I've struggled with. I was raised in a religious community (which I no longer live in) where it was the accepted norm to live with your parents until you get married. The notion of pushing your kids out of the house at 18 to go start their own life has always puzzled me. Men still living with their Mom's are the but of jokes. Girls are supposed to have appartments and careers and pay all their own bills and do all their own house work all by themselves. To me, this is where the seeds of breaking the family lie. The support, the love, the camaderie of having my adult children in the house is not only a comfort and a blessing to me, it demonstrates to my children how much I value having them in my life and how joyous having children can be. Two of them have tried out having their own appartments, one for school, the other under peer pressure. The one at 24 and the other at 21 are both currently back at home full on planning to homestead with Mom noting that our resources are greater together than separated. They want their own spaces and have their own dreams, but we are working together to help each other to those goals instead of this individual 'fend for yourself' mentality that is dividing our younger generations into single units. Of course the idea of having children is scary when you are on your own and then what is the point if you push them away just when they are able to take care of themselves. How can we expect the new generation to want to establish their own family homes all the while telling them they should be separate and independant and omnipotent while they are still single?
My wife and I have a 6, 4, 3, and 1 year old. We have a fifth child on the way. You hardly hear a congratulations for the first child and you receive increasing amounts of scorn past number two. We are at the point where we just don't bother to tell anymore and let the kids let it slip when they may.
On a positive note, the only place we notice larger families is at home school activities and church. If those having kids can prepare them to enter into the world without being devoured maybe there is some hope for the future.
We live on an island in Washington State and I tell all the old ladies in my garden club that my family is trying to lower the median age of the town. When we were raising our seven in the Seattle area I used to tell people that we not only got our social security covered but we’re making sure several childless couples were covered too!! Now with 27 grandchildren and more on the way, we are really ensuring the checks keep coming!!
Do you know or follow Dr. Aaron Kheriaty? Your deep faith and philosophical and literary perspectives, despite your science-based professions, are strikingly similar! You get the “big picture” of life!
I completely understand disallowing kids at one’s wedding. It never occurred to my husband and I to exclude kids mostly because we do look at weddings as large community celebrations. Also because our families are bursting at the seams with teachers who are not only willing to discipline other people’s children but are unable to refrain from doing so. Unruly children were never a concern for us. However since then we have attended several weddings which would have been a far more pleasant event had children been excluded.
It’s not just unruly and obnoxious children that can make for a frustrating experience although that is a serious issue. What’s worse for me is when parents don’t take into account the other people in attendance. For example I have young children so I completely understand that interrupted nap times and changed schedules can be difficult and sometimes kids are going to meltdown. But once the meltdown starts I have no idea why parents just ride it out in the service or reception and let the kid scream for ten minutes. It’s extremely frustrating to do everything in your power to keep your kids quiet only to miss the vows because some other parent thinks letting their kid “cry it out” for ten minutes during a wedding ceremony is okay.
I have some friends who have very respectful and kind children and it’s common for them to hear things like “I don’t normally like kids, but I like having your kids around.” Conversely I have friends with children who are not necessarily out of control but just not very respectful of others and it’s common for those friends to complain that same environment is hostile to kids. So I think often when it comes to kids getting excluded parents are our own worst enemies. If you want your kids to be included, you had better make darn sure they are respectful and under control when they are included.
More parents need to adhere to Jordan Peterson Rule No 5 “Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them.”
I can’t remember where I picked up this link- maybe here? Or maybe Jon haidt’s substack? Anyway, I know I’m reading into it a LOT...I’m raising and homeschooling 4 kids (ages 7-16)...but I’m very struck by the significance that is placed on autonomous play and the way in which kids are being reared away from home has destroyed opportunities for older kids to be in charge of younger kids and taking adults and adult control out of the picture.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lkJQjywJ0wZT9-io-hY9IcY9KkTCrTJY/view?usp=drivesdk
Reading your piece made me think a lot about how different each of my kids is and about how valuable the socialization here at home is. We talk a lot about what they think their strengths and weaknesses are...how those strengths can also be their Achilles...and how to consider the perspective (and the general humor) of their siblings in order to have patience for one another.
Since when did my family family size become your business? People can have as many or few children as they afford.
The decline in population world wide has been on-going and might be a serious future limitation. I sense that the world is more than capable of feeding itself indefinitely given the progress of technology so the fears of Malthus are silly. But the effort to convince females that corporate life is more rewarding than motherhood certainly has helped the corporations rather than the women involved. But redefining that outside work vs building a home balance is way overdue. My cynic sees childlessness as pure selfishness. As I age away, my grands seem the only real evidence of my "good" works. There were struggles along the way but I had a solid partner. That took effort of us both. I believe whatever we did was worth that effort.
The cultural issues associated with the demise of Indo-European stock "white" may equally be of concern as time goes on. As we divide ourselves into various tribes to please various political forces, the loss of cultural values in children become important. We can lose the ability to have a melting pot of culture. A sensitive issue.